A discussion on "Tutoiement" (use of intimate vs. formal pronouns) in translations of Jane Austen's _Pride and Prejudice_ ================================================================== a question for speakers of languages other than english... _________________________________________________________________ Posted by Kate on October 17, 1997 at 09:04:01: While I am depressingly monolingual, I am fascinated by other languages and know enough to know that most european languages, for example, have two form of "You": an intimate form used for friends and familiy ("tu" in French or "du" in German) and a formal form used for people you don't know so well, or for whom you are obliged to show respect ("vous" in French and "Sie" in German - these are the two languages that I am most familiar with, but the same phenomenon occurs in Spanish, Italian, Dutch, etc etc) Having talked to a lot of native speakers of these languages, it appears that the agreement between two people, as friends, say, to move from "vous" to "tu" or "Sie" to "du" can be quite an important moment in the history of a relationship - when they moved from professional relationship to friendship, or acquaintanceship to friendship or whatever. What has always struck me as one of the more subtle aspects of translating works in English to these other languages is that the translator would have to decide how characters would address each other, and if this would change in the course of the story. In P&P for example, I would imagine that Jane and Lizzy use the intimate form to each other, and probably Lizzy and Charlotte, but that Lizzy would always address Mr. Collins as "vous/Sie", and probably her parents as well, given that this was, I understand, the custom in past years. What I want to know is, what does she call Darcy, and what does Darcy call her in the course of their relationship? Do they use the "vous/Sie" approach all the way through, or do they move to "tu/du" at some point? I'd be interested in knowing this about the dubbed or subtitled version of the adaptation AND any translations or the novel you might know of. _________________________________________________________________ Theory of formality _________________________________________________________________ Posted by La Dem on October 17, 1997 at 10:30:16: In response to a question for speakers of languages other than english..., written by Kate on October 17, 1997 at 09:04:01 [snip] ] What I want to know is, what does she call Darcy, and what does Darcy call her in the course of their relationship? Do they use the "vous/Sie" approach all the way through, or do they move to "tu/du" at some point? I'd be interested in knowing this about the dubbed or subtitled version of the adaptation AND any translations or the novel you might know of. ______________ Theoretically speaking, and from modern day experience with French and Spanish, I will permit myself to say, that in the whole of the Darcy/Elizabeth relationship, I imagine it would be formal (vous/sie) all the way. The only point I can think of, where they would ever have used the informal (tu/du), would be as man and wife on more intimate terms (only between themselves) but would refer back to formal terms again in front of company. It seems also, considering the time period, they were already very formal in speaking in English, compared to modern times for example. So, I would imagine it even more so in French, Spanish, and German at that time. I have not have the pleasure of reading Jane Austen in other languages :-(, and I will add that there are many out there who are experts on the subject from the experience of actually speaking and reading those foreign languages ;-) Martine? Tineke? etc.? _________________________________________________________________ My 2 centimes... _________________________________________________________________ Posted by Martine on October 20, 1997 at 23:39:39: In response to Theory of formality, written by La Dem on October 17, 1997 at 10:30:16 Unfortunately, I have not read P&P in French, so I couldn't answer for certain. However, I agree with you that Darcy would address Lizzy as "vous" all the time, including during and after the "accepted" proposal, and vice-versa. Only after their marriage would they--possibly--(and very likely, considering how lively and "informal" Lizzy is) move to "tu," and only during intimate moments. With company, as you stated, they would fall back on the "vous," simply because it was the accepted and proper way to address one another even in a couple when other parties where involved. Hope this helps! Martine _________________________________________________________________ In Dutch... _________________________________________________________________ Posted by Tineke on October 17, 1997 at 14:17:10: In response to Theory of formality, written by La Dem on October 17, 1997 at 10:30:16 ] [snip] ] ] What I want to know is, what does she call Darcy, and what does Darcy call her in the course of their relationship? Do they use the "vous/Sie" approach all the way through, or do they move to "tu/du" at some point? I'd be interested in knowing this about the dubbed or subtitled version of the adaptation AND any translations or the novel you might know of. ______________ In Dutch, the formal word for You (vous/Sie) is "u", while the more informal (tu/du) is "je "or "jij". I just checked the Dutch translation of P&P. Lizzy addresses Darcy with "u" (vous/sie) and Darcy says "u" as well. During the first proposal they still say "u", while they address each other as "je" (tu, du) during the second proposal. Of course they continue using "je" when they're engaged. Lizzy addresses her father with "u", but her father says "je" to his children. Mr. and Mrs. Bennet use "je" when talking to eachother. In the letter from E.Gardiner to Mr. Bennet "je" is used. The letter Lizzy writes to her aunt is in the "u" form, while Mrs. Gardiner replies to Lizzy using "je". As you could have guessed Lizzy, Jane and Charlotte use "je" when talking to each other. I hope this clears things up a bit. It's possible that it's different in other translations. _________________________________________________________________ German translations _________________________________________________________________ Posted by Renate on October 17, 1997 at 17:42:46: In response to a question for speakers of languages other than english..., written by Kate on October 17, 1997 at 09:04:01 ] What has always struck me as one of the more subtle aspects of translating works in English to these other languages is that the translator would have to decide how characters would address each other, and if this would change in the course of the story. ] What I want to know is, what does she call Darcy, and what does Darcy call her in the course of their relationship? Do they use the "vous/Sie" approach all the way through, or do they move to "tu/du" at some point? I'd be interested in knowing this about the dubbed or subtitled version of the adaptation AND any translations or the novel you might know of. ______________ I have checked two German translations (there must be a dozen different translations presently in the book stores!) and found an interesting result: In one (lighter, but IMO inferior) translation the change from "Sie" zu "du" is right in the middle of the second proposal scene (Chapter 58). While he still addresses her formally in his speech ending with "...silent on this subject forever", he uses the familar "Du" when he talks to her again one page later about Lady Catherine's intervention. The other translation makes the change from formal to familiar address much later, in Chapter 60, after Lizzy had recovered from her mother's reaction, she addresses him with "du" when she starts to tease him. In both cases the parents and Mrs. Gardiner are addressed familiar, too. Can't check the dubbed tv version right now, but I think it was like the first translation. This would correspond with modern habits. No German today would say "Sie" to a person she/he is engaged with (would be ridiculed!), but 200 years ago they would. BTW, P&P2 struck me as a very modern version of a period piece in many respects, compared with the usually more naturalistic style of German tv productions. This Sie/du is indeed a very subtle instrument to describe the relationships and their changes. I prefer the second translation, because it gives more of the period feeling. _________________________________________________________________ How they did it in the translation _________________________________________________________________ Posted by Caroline on October 17, 1997 at 16:09:29: In response to a question for speakers of languages other than english..., written by Kate on October 17, 1997 at 09:04:01 Kate, in the French-dubbed version of P&P2, which was very sensitively done, Everybody "vouvoyed" everyone else unless it was family speaking to younger ones, e.g. Mr. Bennet talking to his daughters, and Jane talking to her younger cousins. Even after the second proposal, Darcy still adresses Elizabeth as "vous". At least, that's what I remember, because I haven't seen it in about a year, now, but when I did I was most attentive to these matters. And before anyone wonders, "vouvoyer" and "tutoyer" really are french verbs, meaning the action of addressing someone as vous and tu. _________________________________________________________________ Vous ou tu? _________________________________________________________________ Posted by Barbara on October 18, 1997 at 00:28:15: In response to How they did it in the translation, written by Caroline on October 17, 1997 at 16:09:29 This is what I would have thought, but I assume Lizzy would and Darcy might begin to use "tu" after they were married. Mr. and Mrs. Bennet, however, still call each other Mr. and Mrs., so probably continue with the vous. My husband's parents only speak French. My husband and all their siblings call their parents (and grandparents, aunts, and uncles) "vous". The siblings call each other "tu", and spouses, including his parents call each other "vous". _________________________________________________________________ My notes on a case of tutoiement and vouvoiement _________________________________________________________________ Posted by The Mysterious H.C. on October 21, 1997 at 10:26:03: In response to a question for speakers of languages other than english..., written by Kate on October 17, 1997 at 09:04:01 ] most european languages, for example, have two form of "You": an intimate form used for friends and familiy ("tu" in French or "du" in German) and a formal form used for people you don't know so well, or for whom you are obliged to show respect ("vous" in French and "Sie" in German ] Having talked to a lot of native speakers of these languages, it appears that the agreement between two people, as friends, say, to move from "vous" to "tu" or "Sie" to "du" can be quite an important moment in the history of a relationship - when they moved from professional relationship to friendship, or acquaintanceship to friendship or whatever. ] What has always struck me as one of the more subtle aspects of translating works in English to these other languages is that the translator would have to decide how characters would address each other, and if this would change in the course of the story. ______________ Kate, in the summer of 1994, I read Charles Dickens' Little Dorrit for the first time, and was so taken with it that after having read it in English three or so times, I started reading it in a recent (1960's) French translation, just for the sake of variety ;-) Anyway, here are some notes I wrote down on July 19th 1994 (with explanatory comments for those who haven't read the novel added in square brackets "[]"): "I still haven't mastered the mysteries of tutoiement -- Amy and Fanny [two unmarried sisters] always use mutual tu, as do married couples (mostly); Frederick and William [two older brothers] alternate between tu and vous, William usually uses tu to his [grown-up] children (but occasionally vous), while his children always use vous to him. The young Amy and Bob [a young child and and adult friend] use mutual tu, but Little Dorrit [a.k.a. Amy] and Arthur Clennam use mutual vous even after they are engaged (and Little Dorrit's request that he say "I love you" is rendered "Je vous aime"). Oh, and Rigaud tutoies Cavalletto [his subordinate in crime], who vouvoies Rigaud. Surely this does not represent contemporary (the translation was published in 1970) French practice?? Are these patterns supposed to reflect the practice of the time that the novel was written in? [The novel was set in the late 1820's and published in 1855-1857.] Or is it some archaicizing pseudo-historical convention which has nothing to do with any particular period?? There's definitely something I don't understand there." _________________________________________________________________ Clues _________________________________________________________________ Posted by Martine on October 23, 1997 at 01:19:36: In response to My notes on a case of tutoiement and vouvoiement, written by The Mysterious H.C. on October 21, 1997 at 10:26:03 Henry, All of this sounds to me as though they are trying to reproduce the usage of the time. If you were to read Balzac or Hugo, that is what you would find. I haven't read Little Dorritt in a long, long time, so I just might be misinterpreting here. There is only one odd usage in what you describe: Amy and Fanny [two unmarried sisters] always use mutual tu, as do married couples (mostly); Normal because of their family relationship (married couples would often use vous if in public, and tu in private. Frederick and William [two older brothers] alternate between tu and vous Understandable. Guys have to show some distance to prove they can be on their own. Vous is a way of showing (in public) that they don't depend too much on their family, even their brother. William usually uses tu to his [grown-up] children (but occasionally vous), while his children always use vous to him. Normal. Grandfather: Tu for familiarity, vous to teach the kids some distance and independence. Kids: respect towards the grandfather. The young Amy and Bob [a young child and and adult friend] use mutual tu, but Little Dorrit [a.k.a. Amy] and Arthur Clennam use mutual vous even after they are engaged (and Little Dorrit's request that he say "I love you" is rendered "Je vous aime"). That's where I'm not too sure. 2 people that have know each other for a long time would say tu. I don't know about Arthur. Rigaud tutoies Cavalletto [his subordinate in crime], who vouvoies Rigaud. Normal. Rigaud with the tu says his superiority over Cavalletto. Cavalletto shows his respect/fear and submission. Hope this helps. Martine _________________________________________________________________ ================================================================== [It didn't come out in the discussion, but Jane Austen answers the question to some degree in her original English works -- since a character addressing another character by first name is somewhat equivalent to continental European "tu", and a character addressing another character by "Mr., Mrs., Miss" + last name is somewhat equivalent to continental European "vous". So the turning point would appear to be in Chapter 58, where Elizabeth addreses Darcy as "Mr. Darcy" before the second proposal, and Darcy addresses Elizabeth by her first name after she has accepted. Also, Mr. and Mrs. Bennet address each other as "Mrs. Bennet" and "Mr. Bennet", which would be equivalent to a husband and wife using "vous" in a continental European language.] ================================================================== [ http://www.pemberley.com/ ]Actualizado 2001. Pablo García López.